Stillen BBK w/13" 1pc rotor and 2-piston caliper for <$950?
03-17-2004, 12:17 PM
#41
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Brembo kits have been thoroughly tested, no doubt whatever they do makes them plenty strong. Otherwise, nobody would use them in racing.
Stillen on the other hand
, but their liable if they do break, Matts' not.
Stillen on the other hand
, but their liable if they do break, Matts' not.Does anybody know how either Matts or Brembos brackets are made? Forged, extruded, poured, cast? The way Al is formed has DRAMATIC effects on its strength, likewise steel.
As for your statement:
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
You don't think they actually tried more then one on a Maxima? Do you think they just threw the kit together without trying them on a car? Don't think so. Most likely, guessing here, they ordered up a few different calipers and tried them to see what worked best. Maybe not though. .
As for the PLACEMENT of the calipers, on many different cars I have seen them in MANY different positions. Does anybody have statistical numbers of mounting a caliper at 11 o'clock versus say 9 or even 7? How about 3? Numbers have to be from same car and moving the same caliper around the rotor.
Yes, lengths of line will make a difference in PSI at caliper level. But has anybody MEASURED total length and ID (going for the volume here) of Zs or Maxs? Nope. So you can only THEORIZE what possible differences in pressure could be. And can anybody extrapolate the lost PSI to pedal travel? Nope. I dont think you are going to see dramatic difference there. My guess is the the output pressure PSI of the MC and the increased END volume needed to press that piston is the ultimate point.
03-17-2004, 12:24 PM
#42
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
My point being is Stillen just put together a set of readily available production parts to fit onto a maxima for about $1,000. No special design considerations from what I see were done. Price point and fitment took priority over specific design concerns. "good enough" for the price is how I would call it.
I chose the 13" rotor size because someone with a Z32 used these rotors/calipers to significantly improve their braking performance. In his case, the only difference was larger rotors. In my case, it's larger rotors/4 piston calipers vs ONE piston type. I "think" peformance is much improved. Also considering I actually run this setup is another factor. ie.. 1/2 the pedal pressure normally used to stop the car, now results in all occupants choking themselves on their seatbelts 
I also contend that the all aluminum 300z 4 piston calipers are very close to performance to any of the other calipers on the market. Close enough to not feel a difference in anything less than significant track use. And on a maxima, other design flaws would rear their ugly head before the slight stiffness differences would.
Maybe.
If you want to purchase this kit on the basis that a lawyer would bail you out, go right ahead. I assume you already reviewed their purchase and liability clauses. You must have extensive experience in the arena of suing companies to be so bold right? If not, that's one big assumption you are making. Even if you did "happen" to have a case, do you really think you could get the case settled within 2-3 years? If you win, do you really think there would be no appeal? Let's say you win the appeal, how long do you think it would take Stillen actually pay any type of $? Within 6-8 years?
That's NOT the only reason I'd buy them over building my own homemade kit with 300Z calipers, just a BIG reason, ie comfort factor. PERSONAL choice, which sorry to say can't be explained.
03-17-2004, 12:31 PM
#43
Okay. I know what you are getting at. Z guys have always complained about their brake performance. IMHO, it wasn't the caliper but the rotor size that hurt them. They needed to get a huge 4 piston caliper to fit under the stock 16" rims. That limited the rotor size they could use. They did use thicker rotors than the maxima. But thickness doesn't dictate braking distance(unless fade is a concern).
Now Supra guys have always had some good brakes. But I've never spec'd out a stock Supra mkiv front brake system. But I believe they came with 17" rims. So off hand, I'd say they could use bigger diameter rotors.
[QUOTE=IceY2K1]
Interesting. Maybe Nissan spent good money on developing Brembo quality caliper, yet dropped the ball elsewhere for lack luster performance. Maybe.
[QUOTE]
Now Supra guys have always had some good brakes. But I've never spec'd out a stock Supra mkiv front brake system. But I believe they came with 17" rims. So off hand, I'd say they could use bigger diameter rotors.
[QUOTE=IceY2K1]
Interesting. Maybe Nissan spent good money on developing Brembo quality caliper, yet dropped the ball elsewhere for lack luster performance.
Maybe. [QUOTE]
03-17-2004, 12:36 PM
#44
Originally Posted by Colonel
You seem to be putting a LOT on this particular part of the argument. What failures are you "hypothisizing"? Yes, its a bit of a gamble to get a "privateers" package versus a "name brand" package. What that will come down to is if a bracket broke. No more. If you have a caliper failure, you have to go after that manufacture. Failure in installation, the mechanic.
I think they grabbed what was in STOCK and checked out what fit. You know, if 10 cars can "use" 1 type of caliper, would it not be cheaper to stock and then charge more? Yes, I think so. But unless we are part of XXX companies testing team, this is all theoritical anyway as NONE of us KNOW what was done to build the system. I think they measure the clamping force at the piston/pad/rotor area and if it fits manufacturer spec or better, they get it to fit.
As for the PLACEMENT of the calipers, on many different cars I have seen them in MANY different positions. Does anybody have statistical numbers of mounting a caliper at 11 o'clock versus say 9 or even 7? How about 3? Numbers have to be from same car and moving the same caliper around the rotor.
Yes, lengths of line will make a difference in PSI at caliper level. But has anybody MEASURED total length and ID (going for the volume here) of Zs or Maxs? Nope. So you can only THEORIZE what possible differences in pressure could be. And can anybody extrapolate the lost PSI to pedal travel? Nope. I dont think you are going to see dramatic difference there. My guess is the the output pressure PSI of the MC and the increased END volume needed to press that piston is the ultimate point.
03-17-2004, 12:45 PM
#45
Okay, I conceed.
I don't care if 300Z setup is FAR SUPERIOR to even the Brembo GT3 package, I'm just too chicken to trust anything someone makes at home, even myself
, when it comes to something as critical as brakes.
May be a false sense of security "trusting" a reputable company like Stillen, Brembo, Baer, etc., but I feel that's a safer bet.
Just my .02, which aint worth jack.
I don't care if 300Z setup is FAR SUPERIOR to even the Brembo GT3 package, I'm just too chicken to trust anything someone makes at home, even myself
, when it comes to something as critical as brakes.May be a false sense of security "trusting" a reputable company like Stillen, Brembo, Baer, etc., but I feel that's a safer bet.
Just my .02, which aint worth jack.
03-17-2004, 01:06 PM
#46
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Okay, I conceed.
I don't care if 300Z setup is FAR SUPERIOR to even the Brembo GT3 package, I'm just too chicken to trust anything someone makes at home, even myself, when it comes to something as critical as brakes.
May be a false sense of security "trusting" a reputable company like Stillen, Brembo, Baer, etc., but I feel that's a safer bet.
Just my .02, which aint worth jack.
I don't care if 300Z setup is FAR SUPERIOR to even the Brembo GT3 package, I'm just too chicken to trust anything someone makes at home, even myself
, when it comes to something as critical as brakes.May be a false sense of security "trusting" a reputable company like Stillen, Brembo, Baer, etc., but I feel that's a safer bet.
Just my .02, which aint worth jack.
03-17-2004, 01:43 PM
#48
Guys, my interjection into the discussion, not necessarily related to this Stillen kit but to BBK's in general-
With Matt's BlehmCo kit, which uses the stock 1-piston caliper but with a larger rotor, how will this affect braking performance? (i.e. what does moving the pad out to a larger radius accomplish)
My hypothesis is that it increases braking friction, since the pad now covers more physical area per rotation of the wheel. Is this correct?
(sorry if this has been answered in another thread, I think I posted this question before but didn't see an answer, unless it was answered and I forgot which thread to check
)
----
er, on second thought, I doubt it increases "friction" since friction is a property of the pad against the rotor... but it has to increase *something*, since the pad is now covering more physical area per rotation of the wheel. More heat produced (==more braking)?
With Matt's BlehmCo kit, which uses the stock 1-piston caliper but with a larger rotor, how will this affect braking performance? (i.e. what does moving the pad out to a larger radius accomplish)
My hypothesis is that it increases braking friction, since the pad now covers more physical area per rotation of the wheel. Is this correct?
(sorry if this has been answered in another thread, I think I posted this question before but didn't see an answer, unless it was answered and I forgot which thread to check
)----
er, on second thought, I doubt it increases "friction" since friction is a property of the pad against the rotor... but it has to increase *something*, since the pad is now covering more physical area per rotation of the wheel. More heat produced (==more braking)?
03-17-2004, 01:51 PM
#49
Originally Posted by spirilis
Guys, my interjection into the discussion, not necessarily related to this Stillen kit but to BBK's in general-
With Matt's BlehmCo kit, which uses the stock 1-piston caliper but with a larger rotor, how will this affect braking performance? (i.e. what does moving the pad out to a larger radius accomplish)
My hypothesis is that it increases braking friction, since the pad now covers more physical area per rotation of the wheel. Is this correct?
(sorry if this has been answered in another thread, I think I posted this question before but didn't see an answer, unless it was answered and I forgot which thread to check )
----
er, on second thought, I doubt it increases "friction" since friction is a property of the pad against the rotor... but it has to increase *something*, since the pad is now covering more physical area per rotation of the wheel. More heat produced (==more braking)?
With Matt's BlehmCo kit, which uses the stock 1-piston caliper but with a larger rotor, how will this affect braking performance? (i.e. what does moving the pad out to a larger radius accomplish)
My hypothesis is that it increases braking friction, since the pad now covers more physical area per rotation of the wheel. Is this correct?
(sorry if this has been answered in another thread, I think I posted this question before but didn't see an answer, unless it was answered and I forgot which thread to check
)----
er, on second thought, I doubt it increases "friction" since friction is a property of the pad against the rotor... but it has to increase *something*, since the pad is now covering more physical area per rotation of the wheel. More heat produced (==more braking)?
rotors convert the energy of the car movement into heat (physics- energy is never lost, but only converted). When the rotors exceed their thermal capacity and cannot cool off in time, the brakes become worthless (u can stomp on the pedal and the car won't stop)
03-17-2004, 01:52 PM
#50
I don't think it helps more pad coverage(unless OEM didn't 100% cover), however moving the caliper farther from the center allows a larger moment arm, increasing braking torque.
Kind of like a breaker bar vs. your punny wrench. Check out this thread for more:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=124860
4) Braking torque: When we are talking about results in the braking department we are actually talking about braking torque - not line pressure, not clamping force and certainly not fluid displacement or fluid displacement ratio. Braking torque in pounds-feet on a single wheel is the effective disc radius in inches times clamping force times the coefficient of friction of the pad against the disc all divided by 12. The maximum braking torque on a single front wheel normally exceeds the entire torque output of a typical engine.
Kind of like a breaker bar vs. your punny wrench. Check out this thread for more:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=124860
Originally Posted by spirilis
Guys, my interjection into the discussion, not necessarily related to this Stillen kit but to BBK's in general-
With Matt's BlehmCo kit, which uses the stock 1-piston caliper but with a larger rotor, how will this affect braking performance? (i.e. what does moving the pad out to a larger radius accomplish)
My hypothesis is that it increases braking friction, since the pad now covers more physical area per rotation of the wheel. Is this correct?
(sorry if this has been answered in another thread, I think I posted this question before but didn't see an answer, unless it was answered and I forgot which thread to check )
With Matt's BlehmCo kit, which uses the stock 1-piston caliper but with a larger rotor, how will this affect braking performance? (i.e. what does moving the pad out to a larger radius accomplish)
My hypothesis is that it increases braking friction, since the pad now covers more physical area per rotation of the wheel. Is this correct?
(sorry if this has been answered in another thread, I think I posted this question before but didn't see an answer, unless it was answered and I forgot which thread to check
)
03-17-2004, 02:12 PM
#53
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
I don't think it helps more pad coverage(unless OEM didn't 100% cover), however moving the caliper farther from the center allows a larger moment arm, increasing braking torque.
Kind of like a breaker bar vs. your punny wrench. Check out this thread for more:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=124860
Kind of like a breaker bar vs. your punny wrench. Check out this thread for more:
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?threadid=124860
03-17-2004, 02:46 PM
#54
Any idea what new rotors cost? Can they be turned? What about pad costs?
Thanks.
Thanks.
Originally Posted by slammed95
Rotors with hats weighed in at 13.1lbs, and calipers at 5.4lbs. Both are much lighter than stock.
03-17-2004, 03:11 PM
#55
Guest
Posts: n/a
www.fastbrakes.com was a good source of getting big brakes for cheap. click this link...
http://www53.ssldomain.com/fastbrake...rtnum=B13-11-4
for my SE-R i paid $600 SHIPPED for this EXACT KIT. now its $1050
all we need to do is make the caliper relocation braket (im not sure if the brackets made by matt?? will work) then you call wilwood and get some dynalight 4 piston calipers and some bigger rotors. the only R&D is in the caliper relocation bracket..otherwise the parts are cheap. I'm with ICY..i would love a BABK kit for cheap and it could be done...
http://www53.ssldomain.com/fastbrake...rtnum=B13-11-4
for my SE-R i paid $600 SHIPPED for this EXACT KIT. now its $1050
all we need to do is make the caliper relocation braket (im not sure if the brackets made by matt?? will work) then you call wilwood and get some dynalight 4 piston calipers and some bigger rotors. the only R&D is in the caliper relocation bracket..otherwise the parts are cheap. I'm with ICY..i would love a BABK kit for cheap and it could be done...
03-17-2004, 05:20 PM
#57
Originally Posted by slammed95
Yeah, it's pretty rediculous. It's worth it for the weight savings though. Solid rotors are freakin' heavy! These people with Cobra rotors are just slowing them selves down!
03-17-2004, 09:14 PM
#58
Member
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 154
Hey guys, just wanted to throw in some info about the PBR calipers that are on the Mustangs. This is from the Mustang brake god's website(Matt Bobbitt aka: matt90gt): http://svo73mm.cjb.net/
'93 Cobra R: 13x1.1" vented rotors, PBR dual piston 38mm unit from Corvette (interchangeable with Cobra and Bullitt calipers). 10.5" rear vented disc.
'94-95 V6 & GT: 10.8x1.0" front rotors, 66mm single piston calipers. Rear single piston 38mm Varga caliper, 10" solid rotor
'94-98 Cobra, '95 Cobra R: 13.0x1.1" KVH rotors, 38x38mm dual piston PBR calipers. Rear single piston 38mm Varga Caliper, 11.65" vented rotor
'99+ V6 & GT: 10.8x1.0" front rotors, 44.5x44.5mm dual piston PBR calipers. Rear single piston Varga caliper, 10" solid rotor
'99+ Cobra: 13.0x1.1" Brembo rotors, spec'd 40x40 mm dual piston PBR calipers. Rear single piston 38mm Varga Caliper, 11.65" vented rotor
'00 Bullitt Mustang: Same brakes as 94-98 Cobras (unique red PBR calipers with running horse up front, same varga caliper in rear painted red.) Rear single piston 38mm Varga Caliper, 11.65" vented rotor
'00 Cobra R: 13.0x1.1" Brembo rotors, Brembo 4 piston calipers. 36x40mm pistons. Rear disc the same as the stock '99+ Cobras
*****Notice the piston diameters in the 99+ V6 & GTcalipers vs the 94-98, 95 Cobra R calipers vs the 99+Cobra Brembo Caliper!!!!*****
'93 Cobra R: 13x1.1" vented rotors, PBR dual piston 38mm unit from Corvette (interchangeable with Cobra and Bullitt calipers). 10.5" rear vented disc.
'94-95 V6 & GT: 10.8x1.0" front rotors, 66mm single piston calipers. Rear single piston 38mm Varga caliper, 10" solid rotor
'94-98 Cobra, '95 Cobra R: 13.0x1.1" KVH rotors, 38x38mm dual piston PBR calipers. Rear single piston 38mm Varga Caliper, 11.65" vented rotor
'99+ V6 & GT: 10.8x1.0" front rotors, 44.5x44.5mm dual piston PBR calipers. Rear single piston Varga caliper, 10" solid rotor
'99+ Cobra: 13.0x1.1" Brembo rotors, spec'd 40x40 mm dual piston PBR calipers. Rear single piston 38mm Varga Caliper, 11.65" vented rotor
'00 Bullitt Mustang: Same brakes as 94-98 Cobras (unique red PBR calipers with running horse up front, same varga caliper in rear painted red.) Rear single piston 38mm Varga Caliper, 11.65" vented rotor
'00 Cobra R: 13.0x1.1" Brembo rotors, Brembo 4 piston calipers. 36x40mm pistons. Rear disc the same as the stock '99+ Cobras
*****Notice the piston diameters in the 99+ V6 & GTcalipers vs the 94-98, 95 Cobra R calipers vs the 99+Cobra Brembo Caliper!!!!*****
03-17-2004, 10:25 PM
#60
Originally Posted by slammed95
Well in that case, here are the specs of the AP's to compare:
Piston Diameters: 38.1mm x 2 / 41.3mm x 2
Piston Area: 49.5cm²
Disc Dia.: 315min 330max
Disc Thickness: 32mm
Caliper weight: 2.45kg
Piston Diameters: 38.1mm x 2 / 41.3mm x 2
Piston Area: 49.5cm²
Disc Dia.: 315min 330max
Disc Thickness: 32mm
Caliper weight: 2.45kg
height: 29mm
piston tip diameter: 29-30mm
piston diameter (whole): 38-40mm
I will measure caliper weight at a later time
03-18-2004, 12:08 PM
#62
Nice what are you doing for the rears? I have way too much front brake with my set up. More front braking would be useless IMHO. I'm trying to get bigger rotors in the rear to even it out.
Originally Posted by slammed95
You can have it as soon as the bigger brakes go on.
Don't ask. Just gotta work on some projects to be able to run a decent size tire.
Don't ask. Just gotta work on some projects to be able to run a decent size tire.
03-18-2004, 12:21 PM
#64
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
You BBK guys ever test your 60-0mph? Or faster?
Once Colonel Sanders' finishes with my Gtech pro, we'll have some stock vs. Matts' 300Z BBK comparison numbers.
Once Colonel Sanders' finishes with my Gtech pro, we'll have some stock vs. Matts' 300Z BBK comparison numbers.
Still reading the damned instructions. Did you know if the weight of the vehicle is still stored in it or do I have to reset that part?
03-18-2004, 12:25 PM
#66
Weight is only needed for hp calculation.
You don't need to for 60-0mph.
You don't need to for 60-0mph.
Originally Posted by Colonel
Hey who said I was going to publish those number?!?!?!
Still reading the damned instructions. Did you know if the weight of the vehicle is still stored in it or do I have to reset that part?
Still reading the damned instructions. Did you know if the weight of the vehicle is still stored in it or do I have to reset that part?
03-18-2004, 12:26 PM
#67
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Weight is only needed for hp calculation.
You don't need to for 60-0mph.
You don't need to for 60-0mph.
03-18-2004, 12:27 PM
#68
READ the link I provided above...it explains it all.
Originally Posted by Larrio
shouldn't tires be more of a factor in breaking distance? Obviously bigger brakes would help also, but not as much as sticky high compound rubber
03-18-2004, 12:29 PM
#69
Old Fuddy Duddy
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 2,712
Originally Posted by Larrio
shouldn't tires be more of a factor in breaking distance? Obviously bigger brakes would help also, but not as much as sticky high compound rubber
Since it will be the same tires (minus about 100 miles) from stock to Matts kit, that part of the equation should remain constant.
04-11-2004, 03:46 PM
#70
I just printed out the brake profile and went to my stock 17's and it fits by like a **** hair like a 1/16 to an 1/8 inch. Possibly not needing a wheel spacer for it. It's something to think about for new brakes.
04-11-2004, 09:23 PM
#71
Maxima Pilot
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Beaverton, Oregon
Posts: 1,467
Guys....not to rain on the technical parade and serious technical dissertations on this thread about the size of the master cylinder being critical and all that....lemme tell ya....horsepucky.
I have the rather large Superlite calipers and my pedal's feel is phenomenal: much -and I mean MUCH- tighter, direct, linear and positive feel than with my OEM calipers which were designed to work in conjunction with the OEM master cylinder.
Remember your physics....fluid is incompressible, therefore it does not move when u depress the pedal....all your are doing is creating pressure in the hydraulic line which is transferred to the pistons on the calipers and for that, fluid movement is nil.....
I have the rather large Superlite calipers and my pedal's feel is phenomenal: much -and I mean MUCH- tighter, direct, linear and positive feel than with my OEM calipers which were designed to work in conjunction with the OEM master cylinder.
Remember your physics....fluid is incompressible, therefore it does not move when u depress the pedal....all your are doing is creating pressure in the hydraulic line which is transferred to the pistons on the calipers and for that, fluid movement is nil.....
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